\n<\/p>\n
Holly Newson 00:00<\/b> <\/p>\n
Welcome to Working Scientist<\/i>, a Nature Careers podcast. <\/p>\n
I\u2019m Holly Newson, and in this series, you\u2019ll hear from authors who can help you in your career. <\/p>\n
In this episode, I\u2019m joined by Sonali Majumdar, a scientist and higher education expert, and the author of Thriving as an International Scientist, a book that looks at the challenges facing global STEM PhDs, and offers advice and solutions to help. <\/p>\n
Sonali, thank you so much for joining me. <\/p>\n
Sonali Majumdar 00:27 <\/b><\/p>\n
Thank you so much for inviting me Holly. <\/p>\n
I\u2019m excited for this conversation. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 00:31 <\/b><\/p>\n
To kick off with, how would you define an international scientist? <\/p>\n
Sonali Majumdar 00:35 <\/b><\/p>\n
Yeah, for the purposes of my book, the way that I think about the population that are foreign-born. <\/p>\n
And most of them are typically on visas, are the ones that I call international scientists. <\/p>\n
For those who have somehow acquired a permanent residency in the country that they\u2019re in. In the case of the book, mostly the United States. <\/p>\n
Those are defined. Those people are defined more as immigrants. And so for internationals, I am mostly catering to the visa-holders who are more early in their career, are just kind of training in their PhD or postdoc, or are in their first job after. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 01:09 <\/b><\/p>\n
Great. That makes complete sense. <\/p>\n
So why did you personally want to pursue your science career in the United States? <\/p>\n
Sonali Majumdar 01:19 <\/b><\/p>\n
So I\u2019ve had a fairly non-linear career path. <\/p>\n
And I\u2019ve been actually thinking on different moments of my life that kind of steered me towards the path I was in. <\/p>\n
And I think the farthest I can kind of go is more like my high school. <\/p>\n
When I came across one of these, actually one of these afternoons when my father left me in the British Library, and I spent the day kind of reading papers. <\/p>\n
And I somehow came across the Human Genome Project. <\/p>\n
At that point, and there was a report on it. And I was so fascinated by the whole idea of genomics, And so I really wanted to study that. <\/p>\n
And this was in India in early 2000s. <\/p>\n
There weren\u2019t that many programmes on genetics or molecular biology. <\/p>\n
So I ended up doing my undergraduate in microbiology and masters in biotechnology. <\/p>\n
And worked after that for a few years as a clinical embryologist. I was part of a healthcare team that started an IVF clinic in a maternity health hospital. <\/p>\n
I was like, as has been the story of my life, since, every few years I kind of get bored with what I\u2019m doing because my interests evolve. <\/p>\n
And one of my family members, who was an academic in the United States, told me you should think about research seriously. <\/p>\n
Because they actually pay you to do research, and you will get funding. <\/p>\n
And the US has, like, really a lot of breadth of research going on in molecular biology, especially in RNAs, which I was interested in. <\/p>\n
And so that\u2019s when I started really looking into it. <\/p>\n
I was still working. <\/p>\n
So I remember taking, like, during my lunch break, going and doing training and taking the tests in the middle of all that. <\/p>\n
And I pretty much, like, gave my notice a week before I came to the US for my PhD. <\/p>\n
Or, like, I finished my job a week before I came to the PhD. <\/p>\n
And so there wasn\u2019t a lot of, like, gap between that. <\/p>\n
So yeah, I mean, it\u2019s, I kind of, like, came at it more with the idea of I wanted to really learn what research was and learn more about RNAs. <\/p>\n
So it was very open-ended in my mind. And I was thrilled by the whole experience. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 03:24 <\/b><\/p>\n
What was that first year in the US like for you? <\/p>\n
Sonali Majumdar 03:29 <\/b><\/p>\n
So I came to the University of Georgia at around 2007. <\/p>\n
And like I said, because I was working, I didn\u2019t spend a lot of time onboarding and thinking more about the systems, etc. <\/p>\n
I figured I\u2019d just figure it out when things happen. <\/p>\n
But thankfully, the Indian Student Association in UGA was very strong. <\/p>\n
And they got in touch with us in terms of like: do you want housing help, do you want roommate matching? <\/p>\n
And so it was very convenient. <\/p>\n
And they kind of placed us in this community of apartments. <\/p>\n
And that helped me build a community with a lot of international students early on. <\/p>\n
The university also, the International Office did a lot of like orientation. <\/p>\n
They really helped us, like, open a bank account, social security networks, accounts, etc, in the first week before we even knew what was going on. <\/p>\n
So I felt like I was always surrounded by community and people who knew what was going on, and they helped me kind of think this through. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 04:35 <\/b><\/p>\n
Yeah, and so what proportion of PhDs and postdocs in the US are international scientists? <\/p>\n
Sonali Majumdar 04:41 <\/b><\/p>\n
So there, there\u2019s some like data from NSF that\u2019s called the Survey of Graduate Students and Postdoctorates. <\/p>\n
And one of the latest data is from 2023 where they estimated about 40.7, approximately 41% of PhD students in the United States are visa-holders. <\/p>\n
And it\u2019s a much higher population in the postdocs. <\/p>\n
It\u2019s almost about 58% of postdocs in the United States are visa-holders. <\/p>\n
And again, this is survey-based. It\u2019s as comprehensive as it gets in terms of the data landscape. <\/p>\n
But we have taken with a pinch of salt that it might not be completely robust. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 05:19 <\/b><\/p>\n
It\u2019s such a huge number in terms of the context of United States science, like, for having read the book and reading about the struggles that international scientists face, it\u2019s kind of crazy to imagine that it could be like half of people facing these struggles. <\/p>\n
So I wondered, what would you say are the biggest sacrifices in being an international scientist? <\/p>\n
And what are the greatest benefits? <\/p>\n
Sonali Majumdar 05:50 <\/b><\/p>\n
Yeah, let me start with the benefits first. <\/p>\n
I, you know, I can speak to my experience as well as a lot of my peers. And now students when I talk to them. Everyone\u2019s thrilled with their academic experience in the US, right? <\/p>\n
The higher ed universities and higher ed system in general, there\u2019s people, it\u2019s a global melting melting pot, is what I want to say. <\/p>\n
Because people from all across the world come and convene here with a shared purpose, for their love of science or research, and really being passionate about solving a problem. <\/p>\n
And so I love the atmosphere of universities, where you\u2019re always around new ideas, new knowledge, creative ideas being brought up everywhere. <\/p>\n
People really intent on thinking through a problem. <\/p>\n
And you know, I mean, that\u2019s not something you find every day. <\/p>\n
And clearly, I haven\u2019t left universities yet, so that\u2019s one of the reasons why. <\/p>\n
But the climate for internationals has been bad for a while. <\/p>\n
It\u2019s got really bad in the last decade, on and off. <\/p>\n
And so going to the sacrifices and challenges, they\u2019re mostly linked to the US immigration system, which is fairly restrictive and dated. <\/p>\n
And so you may not be able to meet your family as regularly and miss out on a lot of, like, milestones, whether they\u2019re happy or sad and badly or grieving. <\/p>\n
In my situation, I lost out on going to my parents\u2019 funerals in both cases, which was probably the most, like, the biggest sacrifice I\u2019ve had in my life. <\/p>\n
The second one is a relate related to this is every time as long as I was doing research, every time I went back to get my visa extended, they would put me on background check or administrative processing, is what it\u2019s called. <\/p>\n
And so you don\u2019t know how long it takes. If they say it\u2019s four to six weeks. Sometimes it could be longer. <\/p>\n
So you\u2019re kind of stuck. <\/p>\n
And your advisors are, you know, nervous because they don\u2019t know when you\u2019re coming back. <\/p>\n
Research might get delayed or stalled. <\/p>\n
And so that\u2019s been sort of like a challenge and a, you know, really sticky point among the international population. <\/p>\n
The other, other big, major point in terms of access to opportunities, when it comes to funding fellowships, as well as career mobility. <\/p>\n
Being an international puts you at a disadvantage, because there\u2019s the system, the way the system works here, you\u2019re, you kind of have an ease in moving into jobs that are narrowly-defined as related to the research training you had in your PhD or postdoc or since. <\/p>\n
And so you have to use very creative ways to really make a case for why you are skilled for a wide variety of careers, outside of just the topics that you\u2019ve done research on. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 08:50 <\/b><\/p>\n
And so tell me a bit more about the creative solutions that international scientists can use when it comes to funding? <\/p>\n
Sonali Majumdar 08:57 <\/b><\/p>\n
Yeah, let me, I mean, it\u2019ll be helpful to kind of talk about the scale of the problem first. <\/p>\n
And so just when I say access to opportunities, there\u2019s, again, data from NSF, from the Survey of Earned Doctorates, where they really evaluated those who graduated from US universities, from PhD programs. <\/p>\n
They looked at what the primary source of their funding was while they were doing their PhD here. <\/p>\n
And you saw a pretty, like, stark difference between the domestic PhD graduates and the international PhDs here. <\/p>\n
About 1\/3 or 30% of domestic PhDs were getting funded through research assistantships, which are typically faculty-directed. <\/p>\n
Whereas more than 50% of internationals relied on faculty-directed research assistantships. <\/p>\n
When it comes to independent fellowships, about 28% or so of domestic PhDs could avail independent fellowships. <\/p>\n
Yes, whereas only 17-ish% of international PhDs were funded through independent fellowships. <\/p>\n
And those could be graduate fellowships, dissertation grants, institutional fellowships, etc. <\/p>\n
Why is this a problem, right? <\/p>\n
Like, the independent fellowships really give you more autonomy to follow research directions that you have. <\/p>\n
If you are under a faculty-directed funding model, you have to work with your faculty on their research ideas and negotiate on, like whether you can follow some of the ideas if they think that\u2019s feasible. <\/p>\n
And so when I talk to a lot of our graduate students and postdocs who are international, (and I\u2019ve been advising folks across the country on this), I really talk about, like, use the creative thinking that you develop in your research. <\/p>\n
Going through this problem, and see what are some different ways that you can get to sort of the goal. <\/p>\n
And right, like that starts with, really understand what your idea of success is, why you want to get funding, or, you know, and then kind of figuring out what are the two or three different paths you can take. <\/p>\n
And in the book, I\u2019ve created this framework called The Creative Design, which is adapted from the Designing Your Life<\/i> or Odyssey Plan<\/i> by Dale Evans and Bill Burnett, where we look at, you know, three different paths of going through any challenge. <\/p>\n
One is your ideal traditional path, like, you know, in the case of funding, it\u2019s the most ambitious, the most high reward funding, like your NSF, NIH, graduate fellowships, etc, which a lot of, most of them, are not open to international. <\/p>\n
So your ideal path is restricted. Let\u2019s say there\u2019s a barrier. So then you look at two different ways to get through it. <\/p>\n
One is an incremental path. <\/p>\n
And in that incremental path, you can look at, if you are really interested in funding for establishing a record of fundability, then you can look at how you can stack up funding that is open to internationals. Like, funding that\u2019s institutional, that your university is providing as fellowships, private sector funding, philanthropic funding. <\/p>\n
There\u2019s a lot of these fundings that are open to international. <\/p>\n
But they may not know about it, and they\u2019re under-subscribed. <\/p>\n
Many universities also license these funding databases. In Princeton there is a database called PIVOT that we license, that a lot of students may not know about. <\/p>\n
And that\u2019s where you can filter through your citizenship status to see what funding in your specific field is available to you. And plan forward for that. <\/p>\n
So that\u2019s one path. And the third path is like looking at the road less travelled. <\/p>\n
I spoke to a lot of faculty, and they understand this problem very well. But they also talk about how shy a lot of international scientists are in asking them to help about this situation. <\/p>\n
They said, like, you know, we could collaborate on writing the grant that the student or the postdoc would write it with me. <\/p>\n
There could be a discussion about attribution, where the international scientists could also avail a co-investigator status if they co-write the grant. <\/p>\n
And that was a feasibility or possibility in the institutional policy. <\/p>\n
Or if that wasn\u2019t even available as an option, they could still write the grant with me, and then I would, as a faculty, write an extensive letter of recommendation and support, which would be helpful in any sort of faculty job market or job, to understand that this person, actually this was their idea, and they did most of the work, but they couldn\u2019t put their attribution for X or Y, reason. <\/p>\n
Which most people now understand in the US, that these are some barriers for international. <\/p>\n
And so that\u2019s my sort of like, you know, way of encouraging international scientists to look at multiple different ways use your creative muscle in thinking what are some ways to navigate challenges, just as you would troubleshoot experiments when things don\u2019t work out? <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 22:27 <\/b><\/p>\n
So tell me about a growth mindset, because that kind of feeds on from from what you\u2019ve been saying and why it\u2019s so important in the context of being an international scientist? <\/p>\n
Sonali Majumdar 14:13 <\/b><\/p>\n
Yeah. So the growth mindset primarily, is based on the work of Stanford psychologist Carol Dweck.<\/p>\n
This is centered on the belief that talent isn\u2019t fixed or innate, that talent and expertise can be developed through learning, through mentorship, through practice and effort. <\/p>\n
And so as opposed to fixed mindset, where you might say, I\u2019m not good at something, therefore I won\u2019t do this. In growth mindset you believe that you\u2019re not good at it yet, which shifts your thinking to, what can I do to get better at something? <\/p>\n
And so that also, again, what it does for many people who are operating under restrictive environments, including international scientists, is it moves your brain from focusing on largely on the problem, to focusing on how to look at possibilities and approaches to solve that problem. <\/p>\n
And so, for example, if you are looking at a job description and see that you\u2019re, you don\u2019t meet majority or all of the criteria of qualification, and you shut it down saying this sector or this job is never for me, that\u2019s a fixed mindset. <\/p>\n
But you look at that and you decide, \u201cOkay, I really like this job and I want something like this in the future. What can I do to get better and competitive at these and meet some of the necessary qualifications?” <\/p>\n
Really following what programmes you could be doing, what mentors you could surround yourself with, what kind of experiences you can build up that demonstrates that you have these qualifications. <\/p>\n
And you\u2019re working down that you have a plan forward to kind of advance in your career. <\/p>\n
And so that\u2019s sort of like why growth mindset is so important to solve some of the restrictive challenges that people face in their careers and in their lives. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 16:06 <\/b><\/p>\n
And you write about this concept, the hidden curriculum. <\/p>\n
So would you explain to me a bit about what that is? <\/p>\n
Sonali Majumdar 16:14 <\/b><\/p>\n
So the hidden curriculum in general is unwritten rules and norms of a professional environment or a system that you may or may not know about. <\/p>\n
And someone who\u2019s operated in that system, someone who\u2019s come from a legacy where, whether your family, your parents, your environment, is aware of that system, you wouldn\u2019t see that as hidden. <\/p>\n
You would see it as an explicit. <\/p>\n
But someone who\u2019s coming from outside that system would see a lot of unwritten rules that they are constantly having to learn and navigate. <\/p>\n
So like I said, for international scientists, it\u2019s from the get-go. <\/p>\n
You have a lot of unwritten rules and hidden curriculum. <\/p>\n
Part of it is setting up life in a new country, right? <\/p>\n
Like, you have to learn all of these financial systems, healthcare systems, credit scores and histories, social security, taxes, etc, right? <\/p>\n
Like, so those are all things that you have to catch up on, that a lot of folks who live in this country know. <\/p>\n
And then you have the academic unwritten rules, right? <\/p>\n
Like, what are the norms of interpersonal communication? whether it\u2019s with your advisor, with your research group, in the field. <\/p>\n
Writing norms, communication norms for academics in an x field versus y field. <\/p>\n
As well as talking to people outside your field. <\/p>\n
These are all things that people need to learn about. <\/p>\n
And some folks might have a greater awareness of it as a function of if they had academic parents, or if they lived in this country. Then also, like, you have things like conferences and networking. Where this is like for internationals, a lot of it is unwritten rules. It starts with the norms of networking. <\/p>\n
They might come from cultures where mingling and interacting with people is very different than the culture of networking in the United States. <\/p>\n
And so it\u2019s understanding the culture, it\u2019s understanding the norms. <\/p>\n
And then kind of building the skills, and in some ways, even shape-shifting to become the accepted norm, whether that feels natural or not in some cases. <\/p>\n
So that was my intent of, kind of talking more about hidden curriculum. <\/p>\n
Because a lot of advisors and mentors may not know what this hidden curriculum is for their international mentee. <\/p>\n
And they might have to, like, keep a lookout and ask them more proactively if they understand or what they know, and they collaborate more with offices like the graduate school, postdoc offices, international offices that have guides to help their international students and postdocs onboard get acclimatized to the environment. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 18:52 <\/b><\/p>\n
On that note, what is the difference between an advisor, a mentor, and a sponsor, and why does that matter? <\/p>\n
Sonali Majumdar 19:02 <\/b><\/p>\n
Yeah, I\u2019m so glad you asked this. <\/p>\n
You know, so in the book, as well as in my own professional life, I regularly advise both students as well as their advisors that we have to have every human being, for their career, needs to surround themselves with a team of advisor, mentors and sponsors. <\/p>\n
It\u2019s almost like in the book, The New PhD, author Leonard Cassuto talks about think of yourself as the CEO of your career, <\/p>\n
And what kind of board of advisors would you like to surround yourself with, who bring different things to the board that helps you move in your career path. <\/p>\n
And so that\u2019s the framing that I kind of say. <\/p>\n
That you need a team of advisor, mentors and sponsors, and people can play different roles in your life at different points. <\/p>\n
And so the distinction between an advisor, mentor and sponsor is important in this case. <\/p>\n
An advisor is someone who has signed up. Guide you on, help you on a set of things that they understand very well, they\u2019re experts at, they have good practice and experience on. <\/p>\n
So for example, in the case of research, it\u2019s your dissertation or research advisor who know the field very well, who know some of the ways to like think about the problems. <\/p>\n
They know the techniques and the skills in those areas, and they can guide them very well on that. <\/p>\n
A mentor is a little broader. <\/p>\n
An advisor may or may not share your background or your specific individual context and challenges that you have, that a mentor might be able to provide and support you in psychosocial, as well as professional development. <\/p>\n
And so in the case of international scientists, an advisor can help you with the research, but they may not be aware of the hidden curriculum that you are navigating around your academic environment and research, that a mentor can help you with. <\/p>\n
And tell you more about how to operate in a university system, where to get help for, what kind of thing, whether it\u2019s In communication or something else, and how to communicate with people. <\/p>\n
And then a sponsor is someone who can open access to opportunities for you, who champions your cause, who advocates for you many times when you\u2019re not in the room. <\/p>\n
So these are people who are writing letters of recommendation, references. You know, connecting you or recommending you for conferences as such. <\/p>\n
In some cases, they can be the same people. But in some cases, they might be different people who are serving different roles. <\/p>\n
And every human being is operates on a continuum, right? <\/p>\n
Like someone would not sign up as a sponsor right away. <\/p>\n
They get to know you, you know, as an advisor or mentor, and then, over time, might become your sponsor. <\/p>\n
So it\u2019s also sort of a continuum. <\/p>\n
So, like, when I talk about surrounding and cultivating a team based on the goals, the big goals someone has in the next year, think about what are their learning goals, and then think about who are the people that can serve different roles in their learning and growth plan, as well as serve as sponsors and open up opportunities for them. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 22:07 <\/b><\/p>\n
When people are doing that self-reflection and maybe working on building that team around themselves, what else should they be reflecting on for themselves in terms of their career? <\/p>\n
Sonali Majumdar 22:20 <\/b><\/p>\n
Yeah, so I always start the whole process of career development with self-reflection as the first thing that they need to do. <\/p>\n
And that\u2019s sort of like the starting point. It\u2019s really critical, and it\u2019s harder. Like I\u2019ve done these classes for about seven, eight years. <\/p>\n
And it doesn\u2019t matter what field people come from, they feel like the self-reflection part is the hardest and, but they also feel very happy that they had that space and opportunity to think this through, because, in general, going day-to-day, you know, you don\u2019t do that. <\/p>\n
And the idea is to really reflect on what your interests, motivations and values are that you really prioritize in your life. And how might there be alignment or misalignment with your professional environment or the jobs you\u2019re seeking, with those skills, interests and values that you care about? <\/p>\n
And those can evolve and change. <\/p>\n
And so doing the self-reflection regularly every few years is helpful to know if some things have changed, and is, how might you change your career direction accordingly. <\/p>\n
The other thing is, the more self-aware you are about your motivations, about your strengths, about your interests, the better you can communicate it to someone else, whether they are your potential employers or your managers. <\/p>\n
And that helps you take leadership of your career, perform better on the job market and interviews, etc. <\/p>\n
But also move towards promotions and buils goals for promotions and advancement. <\/p>\n
The last thing that I would say in terms of self-reflection is in the creative design that I talked about, having a sense for why something is important to you, why you say something is success, defining that success and the why behind it is important. <\/p>\n
That can help you really think through the approaches you are undertaking. <\/p>\n
And this is a common pitfall I see in students who say \u201cI want to do this job or that career.\u201c <\/p>\n
And when I ask them why, they can\u2019t articulate it as clearly the purpose around something. <\/p>\n
And so I always ask them (and they don\u2019t have to do this alone, they can do it with their mentors, with their family), in really thinking about why a set of things are important for them and their family together, to really think about okay, is their current environment serving these goals and these purpose or what are different ways to pursue their idea of success? <\/p>\n
And so a lot of this takes self-reflection on their part. <\/p>\n
But again, they don\u2019t have to do it alone. They can do it with friends, families and mentors, to get some guidance along the way. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 24:59 <\/b><\/p>\n
With a lot of this, there\u2019s kind of an extra burden, maybe a time burden as much as anything else, on international students. <\/p>\n
So how can people go about fitting career exploration and that self-reflection, alongside sorting out visa requirements and all of those things around their day-to-day work. <\/p>\n
How do they, how can someone find some balance within all of that? <\/p>\n
Sonali Majumdar 25:25 <\/b><\/p>\n
Yeah, so I strongly believe that it\u2019s not necessarily intensity, but consistency. And doing little by little incrementally over time, and that adds up. <\/p>\n
And, you know, small changes in behaviour already add up. <\/p>\n
And so there are a few things that I really do that help out in terms of time management. <\/p>\n
One is really looking at, again, having a set of goals, having a plan, breaking down your bigger goal, to sets of steps, manageable steps, to see what you can do, and putting realistic timelines around what parts of the goal, like you would do in your research, right? <\/p>\n
Like, what specific aim are you putting for your research goal? <\/p>\n
What sets of experiments, how much time that you\u2019re giving yourself? <\/p>\n
So treat your life the same way. <\/p>\n
And also evaluating the tasks, and, you know, action items that someone is putting on. <\/p>\n
Is it a good return of investment? Instead of doing three different things, can we do something more strategically, where I do this, invest in one effort that\u2019s bringing me three different benefits, that\u2019s getting me access to more connections. <\/p>\n
It\u2019s helping me develop knowledge and experience at the same time, rather than going for three different activities to get one of each of those. <\/p>\n
So that\u2019s also evaluating the ROI piece. Then it\u2019s, that helps you prioritize which activities or efforts you really want to invest your time in. <\/p>\n
And then it comes down to really time-blocking. <\/p>\n
And time-blocking in a way that you make it a part of your life. <\/p>\n
You block your calendar, whether in your daytime or few hours in the weekend, or something, where you know you\u2019ll do it, and try and even embed it in your life. <\/p>\n
So if it\u2019s something, like, you want to learn something, maybe like listening to a podcast or something on your way to work, because that\u2019s what you\u2019re going to do every day. <\/p>\n
And it becomes a part of your daily life. <\/p>\n
And you\u2019re not taking additional time out or scheduling one hour a week to do one informational interview. <\/p>\n
Or scheduling one hour a week to go to some sort of career event or conference, (sorry, seminar, et cetera), in your institution, or a workshop that\u2019s being led. <\/p>\n
So it\u2019s scheduled, and you can then pick and choose which one you want to do for the week. <\/p>\n
And so that has been very helpful for me. I advise that to my students and people who actually diligently do this, they say that it helps them kind of balance their life and make sure that they\u2019re not overdoing something. <\/p>\n
And the last piece, I would say, start early. <\/p>\n
Because it takes time. <\/p>\n
And so people who do this regularly, actually, you know, allot a little bit of time in the week, but they\u2019re constantly doing this. <\/p>\n
And they start early in the process, rather than, you know, a few months before, they\u2019re looking for a change. And that\u2019s asking too much from others, as well as yourself, to make that change. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 28:19 <\/b><\/p>\n
And of course, the book, naturally, is heavily based around scientists in the United States. <\/p>\n
But tell me a bit about why a scientist might choose to work in a different country, (maybe Canada, for example), as you\u2019ve got a great story in your book about a scientist who goes to work in Canada. <\/p>\n
And yeah, what are the other options out there? <\/p>\n
Sonali Majumdar 28:41 <\/b><\/p>\n
Yeah, and it\u2019s increasingly, increasingly becoming one of, like, the practical option to take is coming to the United States as an international scientist, but broadening your horizon on where else you could be doing research outside the US as well. <\/p>\n
For many reasons we already talked about the immigration. <\/p>\n
And it\u2019s only gotten worse in, recently, with a lot of like, you know, impending changes coming, whether it\u2019s with work visas, or student and training visas. <\/p>\n
Jobs declining in some fields. <\/p>\n
Investments from the government funding or other sources being reduced in some fields, like public health, vaccine research, climate and health, etc. <\/p>\n
So there are many reasons that someone might feel that their ambitions and their plans are not being met in this country. <\/p>\n
And so rather than really being restricted by what I call the sunk cost that I invested in this country, through my training, I learned all the system, and now I\u2019m scared to make a change. <\/p>\n
Really think broadly (and again, this is where, again, planning helps) on where else you could be doing this work. Where else is good research in that field happening. And taking more of both top down and bottoms up approach across or on this. <\/p>\n
So when I say top down, triple AAAS every year comes out with a report on R&D index in the global context, where they look at what percent of a country\u2019s GDP is invested in research. <\/p>\n
And so that gives you, that\u2019s a good indicator of, you know, which country is focusing on scientific research, and the government is behind it. <\/p>\n
The World Economic Forum also has The Future of Jobs Report<\/i>, where they look at different countries and different fields and seeing which country is actually leading in x field or y field in terms of R and D and productions. <\/p>\n
And so that\u2019s also another good metric. <\/p>\n
Then you have, talking of self-reflection, knowing what conditions and attributes are important to you. Whether it\u2019s socioeconomic conditions like safety and freedom of expression and movement, or language. You know, barriers, or comfort, whatever those are. Salary types of jobs that you want. <\/p>\n
At least having a list and prioritizing, and then looking atm talking to people who are in those countries with PhDs to understand where things are at with any of these things that are important for you, to evaluate which country or sorts of country might meet your both personal and professional leads. <\/p>\n
And then finally, looking at a lot of countries that are now actively recruiting STEM PhDs who might have been trained in the United States or otherwise through special entry programmes, talent entry programmes with incentives, or, like faster paths to permanent residency fellowships, as well as career and job opportunities, in terms of like applying for jobs. <\/p>\n
A lot of countries like, you know, Canada had the Federal Work Study Program. EU has now Horizons and the Choose Europe for Science. <\/p>\n
UK had the one of the talent programs. Australia, China, they\u2019re all creating special, special talent programs for STEM PhDs to come, and like, recruit them from US universities. <\/p>\n
And so in terms of Canada, I feel like it\u2019s very similar to the US in some ways. <\/p>\n
So some people might make that transition easier, because it\u2019s not just geographically closer. <\/p>\n
But also, in terms of culture, it\u2019s pretty closer. <\/p>\n
So it makes them feel like it\u2019s an easier shift. <\/p>\n
But it also the story of Calin, where I talk about in the book, he talked about how freedom of movement was so much important, as his parents are ageing, he wanted the ability to be able to go home pretty frequently. <\/p>\n
And that was a really important thing for him, and that\u2019s what he started like, really operating around. <\/p>\n
And also the career mobility of moving, transitioning from scientific research into university administration and career advising. That was becoming very hard in his visa situation. <\/p>\n
So he knew what was important for him. And then he started looking at different options, <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 33:00 <\/b><\/p>\n
And you close the book with a section around how managers and mentors can best support international scientists. <\/p>\n
So would you tell me, (obviously, they can go and read the book!), but the top things that you would like them to know? <\/p>\n
Sonali Majumdar 33:18 <\/b><\/p>\n
Yeah, I think we sort of talked through multiple points on some of the things that international scientists navigate and face challenges with. <\/p>\n
And so the first step is really knowing some of these, like broader challenges that are shared experience for a majority of internationals. <\/p>\n
Some of them being systemic, which like, are US immigration, for example, or the immigration rules of some country, which you know, might pose some sort of, like, restrictions for an international. <\/p>\n
Also the disparity in funding structures. <\/p>\n
How can you help them with access to funding and fellowships that helps them advance their careers. <\/p>\n
nd also understanding, you know, the hidden curriculum and helping them navigate some of those, not presuming that they know a lot of the cultural subtext around, you know, day-to-day functionalities of research. <\/p>\n
Finally, what I would say as a primary strategy, as an advisor or mentor, is, like, leaning from strength and dealing with strength. <\/p>\n
What scientists know is problem solving. <\/p>\n
They\u2019re innately curious and creative. And so helping them build those muscles and use those muscles in their career and other aspects of their life, the creative design that I have in the book, I advise mentors to, like, look at that design and help their mentees work through that design. <\/p>\n
And giving them some, you know, resources on people they can connect with. <\/p>\n
So really expanding their professional network, connecting them to people at conferences. <\/p>\n
But also, no one mentor can do this alone. <\/p>\n
So for them to be aware of the resources that exist in their university, in their industry, and making sure that they collaborate with those offices, those experts, whether it\u2019s the international office, with lawyers, with graduate school, postdoc office, or other entities, where they can direct their mentee to the right people who can help them at the point that they need. So they don\u2019t feel like the burden is singularly on an individual mentor to serve all needs of their mentee. <\/p>\n
So those are some top highlights, that I would say. <\/p>\n
And finally, on a more human level, understanding that international scientists face uphill battles, and so whatever they can do to support them, even if they might not know the details of things. <\/p>\n
Sometimes assurances that it\u2019s okay to take one hour or a few hours out of a day time to, like, work on the immigration document or something that they need to get done, it\u2019s fine. They just kind of need to know that their mentors are in their corner. <\/p>\n
International scientists are generally resourceful. They\u2019ll figure out a way through their community or like getting help. But most of the times, what they need to know is from their mentor, that their mentor is there to support them as they as they would need. <\/p>\n
Holly Newson 36:11 <\/b><\/p>\n
I think that is a great note to end on. <\/p>\n
So Sonali, thank you so much for chatting with me. <\/p>\n
There\u2019s loads more than we could cover here in the book so everyone could go and give that read. <\/p>\n
But yeah, thank you so much. <\/p>\n
Sonali Majumdar 36:25 <\/b><\/p>\n
Thank you so much for inviting me. I love having this conversation with you. <\/p>\n<\/div>\n